Mary Sue (Yes I am taking a break from schoolwork just to rant about this)

[sisterjune]

Mary Sue
I hate hate HATE this term. Just about every fandom I have been in has used this term to either discredit and undermine a female character and her numerous accomplishments or skill or to justify their dislike of her. Usually both. Yes there are underwritten, poorly developed female characters on tv. I can understand not liking them or feeling indifferent to them or if you are like me secretly resenting the writers for doing a shit job with their female characters but putting more effort on the male ones.
However I have rarely in the many years I have spent in fandom, felt the term Mary Sue was ever justified. I am sick to death of hearing this term, it is used frequently by just about everyone in every fandom imaginable. and It's been annoying me for years but after seeing it once again in the comments of a blog for a writer of (one of) my favorite shows (Leverage) I'd finally just had enough. So I am going to rant about it big time right now. If no one wants to read it, feel free to scroll past.

Some asshole was saying that a new and temporary character who appeared the last episode of Leverage was a Mary Sue. She was only around as herself for less than a MINUTE whereas the rest of the time she was in disguise. The person took issue because she was able to fool the entire team of thieves of cons (who are the best out there) for a whole job. and She is supposed to join the team, how the hell can she join the team as a competent reliable member of said team, if she cannot do her job well enough to fool people who would normally be very difficult to fool? How does that work? She needs to prove she like them, is the best of the best. Had she not succeeded in fooling them, would that not prove she cannot play at their level? The people the Leverage team usually target are often very sly, sneaky, and cunning if not always smart (but sometimes they are) so if she cannot fool these people who do not even excel at this what she excels at (she is a grifter and excels at reading people and she can usually play the right character that would best allow her to get what she's after. none of the other members of the leverage team are grifters) furthermore, the "Mary Sue" in question was sent by the team's original grifter member, and this women is amazing and feared far and wide in the underground/among other thieves and cons. So again it makes perfect sense to me that this "Mary Sue" would be very skilled and capable and if she was anything less it would just be narratively ridiculous! But this does not matter to people. What matters is, they do not like this new character or the actress, therefore her character being intelligent and capable is a horrible abominatoin and she must be a Mary Sue.
Honestly I was less annoyed by the people who said they just outright hated the actress or didnt care for her character, which was quite alot of people btw. and I found them very annoying but yet nowhere near as annoying as those who shouted "Mary Sue" as if that somehow justifies their seething hatred. (Although why comment to the writer to tell him how much you hate the actress? Are you hoping he will fire her? How about fuck you?)

What is so much more irritating about the Mary Sue label instead of just saying you hate the character is that fanboys/girls think that by calling a character a "Mary Sue" they have therefore justified their outrageous hatred. I am waiting for the day when people realize that hatred is an irrational emotion and there is rarely a true logical explanation for hating someone, in fact if you can logically explain burning hatred for anyone fictional or otherwise than you may just be a sociopath. Barring a situation where the person who is being hated has A- killed your loved one or B-abuses/mistreats you repeatedly, there is rarely ever a sane explanation for hatred. Yet people try to sanely explain their reasons for hating a female character and all I see everytime is "blah blah I'm an misogynist asshole blah blah" and sometimes I could insert racist in that sentence but it's usually women who get the bashing in fandom, regardless of the color. I know some people here will say but "Hey Tai, why cant I hate a character without it being a misgyny/racism/other form of discrimation thing?" See dislike or disinterest, for any character I can understand. That happens, it's normal, we cant like everyone. Be it in fiction, fandom or reality. However, HATRED is an intense emotion and to spew paragraphs of vitriol about how much you hate a particular character and why (Yes I have seen this many times) usually means there are some serious issues going on here. Whether the person doing the hating/bashing is aware of it or not. and I mean this for any character not just female ones. However it's particularly a problem amongst female characters and considered acceptable.

Which leads me back to the Mary Sue thing and how utterly arbitrary the conditions for being considered a Mary Sueish character are. The way I understood the definition of a Mary Sue back when I first saw the term being thrown around, was to describe made up female characters in fanfics that were usually self inserts for the preteen authors writing them. Usually these women/girls had ridiculous names, exaggerated descriptions of beauty, and excelled in everything no matter what, as well as being the apple of every man's eye. As far as that term went for fanfic, I was totally ok with it. and More often than not the claim of Mary sue was a way to weed out the good fics from the hopelessly bad. However somewhere along the line this became a popular term to throw around for the ORIGINAL work and the characters in visual media, ie tv and film. First of all a big part to me about the Mary Sue issue was that it 1 was a self insert for the author and 2 there was alot of gushing about how great the female in question was and she was often ridiculously better than everyone else. Both of these are RARELY the case in Tv and Film which is more of a show not tell media and I highly doubt the men who write most of the tv shows around now are using their female characters as self inserts (I have a feeling if they did they would be written better) and rarely ever does a show that is not centered on a female character or characters, portray any of their female characters as better than the male ones. Anyway, so when and why did Mary Sue become a term to use for ANY female character fans felt were too pretty/skilled/liked to be acceptable?

Something I saw the other day when I was passing through the Pirates of the Carribbean fandom that just BLEW my mind, so many people going on about how Elizabeth Swann is a Mary Sue....UH WUT? Compared to WHO? All the crazy heroic acrobatic death defying shit that Will and Jack do (especially Jack who is never wrong, always two steps ahead of everyone, gets all the ladies etc etc) and they are ok but Elizabeth who doesnt get to do HALF as much shit is the Mary Sue? SERIOUSLY? But it's obvious to me that anyone who sat and thought about it would know what a piece of shit that claim is but most people in fandom ship Jack/Will, which ok fine but people cant just ship what they want and have Elizabeth as their partner friend who goes off and decides to be lesbian or something, instead Elizabeth has to be discredited as a Mary Sue and pushed aside as unworthy even when the stuff she is "guilty" of the boys are guilty of twice over. Do not even get me started on the wank that has gone around Uhura from the new star trek film cause I can go on about that shit all day and the only reason I'm not is that many others have spoken about it in their own journals far better than I could.
But really this is what is so maddening about the word Mary Sue. This double standard. So many male characters over the years, particularly in action and sci fi films/tv would be categorized as Mary Sue's under the ridiculous and arbitary standards that are used to qualify female characters as such. I mean especially in superhero series, which are more often than not male wank fantasies about amazing buff men who save the day and get all the ladies and cool powers etc etc.
There is so much gender bull shit that makes fandom biased against women, particularly strong prominent ones, that very few people seem to really see or acknowledge. What is sad is that by these impossible standards with that female charas are judged, even iconic female characters like Buffy and Xena would qualify as Mary Sues. In fact the only reason they dont I believe is because they are the stars of the show, this is the only time I've seen that a woman can be strong, beautiful, confident and competant and NOT be called a Mary Sue by the majority.

The thing I hate the most though? If a female character in a show full of strong people is less than competant, people will STILL bitch and call her a waste of space. Which just goes back to how arbitrary and nonsensical the whole Mary Sue thing is. and I'm so so sick of hearing that fucking term. I wish people would just be honest and say "gosh I dont like her cause she's new/gets in the way of my ship/rubs me the wrong way/makes me feel insecure/I always prefer male charas to female ones/I hate women" it would make fandom so much more tolerable. But of course I know, I am asking way too much.

Comments

[kipani-mariko.livejournal.com]

LOL for me I never truly grasped the term 'mary sue' since like you said, people seem to like to alter the definition of it to justify their irrational dislike for a character at times. I can understand the basic idea behind it and I can laugh at really bad ones but it's one of those things that can be overused. I also feel like there are better ways to explain why you don't care for a character if you feel she is too weak or you don't agree with her actions. But I also fear that people just like to dislike a female character simply because she exists. Some characters I feel are unbelievable in that they are too 'perfect', but in a sense for a female to be a captivating heroine, I feel that she needs to possess some kind of special reason to grab people's attention and to root for her. But I dunno, again, I never use the term since I never fully understood how/why people use it XD

[sisterjune.livejournal.com]

Sup Mari! Sorry for the late reply, been swamped with work. I kind of just posted the entry and ignored lj for the rest of the day.

For me Mary Sue as a word has just completely lost all meaning. I mean now adays when I hear someone say "mary sue" it can really mean whatever the hell that person wants it to mean. So even in cases where the word might really apply I hate it being used cause it doesnt even really mean what it's supposed to mean anymore. if that makes sense.

I agree that some characters are too perfect or just paper thin but I feel like at those moments I'd rather people call it like that, instead of Mary Sue cause as I said at this ponit wtf does that even really MEAN? I do wonder if anyone thinks about it anymore.

[acidpenguin46.livejournal.com]

I can't stand the term Mary Sue either, for much the same reasons as you listed. I always think of it as a term describing a character, whether it is male or female, who is solely there as an author self-insert. Sure, there are examples of this in both fanon and canon, but most of the predominantly female characters that are referred to nowadays as "Mary Sue" hardly meet that criteria. It's just become a term used by people to justify their dislike of someone without explaining the real reasons why, and it annoys the hell out of me.

But that's society, I guess. Wy should we have to explain the problem we have with a character, when it is just so much easier to throw the term "Mary Sue" about, even when there is no real grounds for that term's use. *shakes head*

sorry for the late reply yo! school is a bitch :(

[sisterjune.livejournal.com]

While I dont think a Mary Sue has to be a self insert exactly, I always felt that was a big part of it. and If you take that out then you gotta do twice as much to justify a character as a Mary Sue.
Sure, there are examples of this in both fanon and canon, but most of the predominantly female characters that are referred to nowadays as "Mary Sue" hardly meet that criteria

EXACTLY. It's not that there are no Mary Sue's out there. There so is, but no where near the amount of Sues as there are people using the term. and I'll say what I told the others, Mary Sue has to me lost it's meaning over time. It did mean something once and now it doesnt. and To me what it meant before was either a fanfic author despoiling a good show with her poorly written self insert original characters or a published author who's female characters had no real depth and were simply idealized versions of what a woman should be rather than a real woman. So Mary Sue was a way of saying "Stay away this writer sucks/sucks at writing women" but now to me it's used far and away to disparage and discredit female characters that people dont dislike for whatever reason. and I do believe alot of female characters on tv could and should be written better but that does not = Mary Sue. and really what we're both saying now could probably apply to the term "Whore" or "Bitch" in real life. Though it admittedly doesnt seem to be as big a deal now as it was just 10 years ago....

[banana-cave.livejournal.com]

I have heard the term "Mary Sue" used in terms of fanfic, such as creating a new character who is beautiful & awesome and has sex with the main character. I can understand that being used in fanfic as an applicable term in cases like that.

I do not understand people saying that Tara from Leverage is a Mary Sue! WTF? That makes no sense.

I LOVE Sophie/Gina. One of my favorite parts of each episode is seeing who she is going to play each week. However, after finding out that the actress is pregnant, it makes sense that they are having her play a smaller role in the show for the rest of the season. I knew something was up with the lawyer, although I did not guess she was a grifter. I loved the introduction of Tara, and I think it'll add interesting dynamics to the Leverage team in the weeks to come. While the rest of the crew has done grifting, they really do need someone to specialize in it. I think the writers came up with a great way to deal with Gina's pregnancy in relationship to the show.

And I agree that fandoms in general seem to be afraid of shows with strong female characters. As with any character, I prefer ones that have flaws that show they are human. But when that happens with a female character, usually they get labeled in a negative way.

That person might as well call Parker a Mary Sue character. She is beautiful and the best thief in the world. Why not her, too? UGH!

[sisterjune.livejournal.com]

Yeah my beef was about Tara from Leverage. Girlfriend was in ONE episode and barely herself in it and people are already saying she's a Mary Sue?! THE HELL? I mean her only crime in that episode was to be damn good at what she does. and how in the hell is that a crime I ask you? (well she techinically is a criminal but...) It jjust drove me nuts and when I went to refute the guy who called a Mary Sue, with thought out facts and plot referances and things, this shithead responds to me with the results of an internet mary sue test saying "well the test says she is so she must be!" and I just stopped replying at that point cause whatever I said would be completly hostile and I am not about to smack a bitch down in the show runner's BLOG. I am too classy for that. But my hands itched for hours let me tell you.

I love Sophie too! I miss her already ): and yeah I think since Gina got preggers she wont be back in all her glory for a while just yet but hopefully we'll see the real Sophie back in time for S2 finale :D. I suspected the lawyer at the start but then by the end I wondered if she was the real deal and just an innocent caught in the team's schemes but by the end she showed her true self. and I got a bit of a pleasant surprise! I cant wait ot see how she works together with the team. they are obviously not crazy about her. lol

EXACTLY. If Tara is a Mary Sue, so is Parker, So is Sophie, So is the badass mossad chick from two episodes ago. Which is just ridiculous.

[banana-cave.livejournal.com]

There is a Mary Sue test? Why? LOL! That person is obviously a moron and not worth your time.

[darkeyedwolf.livejournal.com]

IMO Mary Sues don't have to be self-inserts. Some people will disagree (there's always an argument on metafandom whether the term can be limited to fanfiction or if it's legitimately applicable to all media) but that's where you get the term "canon Sue." People like Ginny Weasley and Elizabeth Swann -- super-special princesses who aren't necessarily authorial fantasies but who are too smart and amazing and perfect to be anything but a joke.

Me, I've always understood Mary Sue to define how everyone else acts towards a female character. Her inherent beauty/skill/success isn't as important as how the other characters react to it. If all the men love her and all the women are jealous and even her enemies admire her, if she's the center of everyone's world and they discuss among themselves how beautiful and unique and wonderful she is, if she's always right and her suitors are throwing themselves off cliffs just for a whiff of her peach raisin buttermilk sparkle hair, that is when you can slap on the label. You can have a three-faced clown for a heroine, and she can still be a Mary Sue if everyone loves her unconditionally. Bella Swan for example.

Anyway, so when and why did Mary Sue become a term to use for ANY female character fans felt were too pretty/skilled/liked to be acceptable?

BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE DUMB.

This post makes me want to watch more Xena.

sorry for the late reply! I just now finished most of my HW

[sisterjune.livejournal.com]

Yeah I dont think Mary Sue's HAVE to be self inserts per se but do have to be idealized, fantasies. The Perfect Woman or something to that degree. I honestly see very few instances of this on television (or film) although I can think of alot of book heroines where that term might actually apply as it should. Bella for example and I agree that should would fit the term Mary Sue to a T. But honestly most of the people I hear called Mary Sue's, just dont. and I dont think Mary Sue as a term works as well in TV media. and reason is in a book, you have ONE author, usually just the one. Some authors are very transparent in how they want you to see or feel about their characters and in how they fulfill their fantasies via their writing. In Tv, there are MANY writers and it's alot harder to come up with these issues that usually are what create Mary Sue's in the first place. Which isnt to say that they NEVER happen but certianly not in the frequency with which people use the word.
Mary Sue to me should be someone without real depth of character or human flaws, someone who is a cipher for the plot or a self insert of the author. Mary Sue should NOT mean, a woman who is really ridiculously competant or pretty or popular with men. Yes the combination of these things can be hard to swallow but if it's tempered with something else or if the character makes sense, as a real person or person in that fictional world, then Mary Sue should NOT apply! No matter how much a fangirl or boy doesnt like her. and that's my beef. Mary Sue just doesnt even really make sense 90% of the time I hear it used now adays. Which isnt to say that no one ever uses it correctly but most people just dont. and I feel like that word has entirely lost it's meaning now. Or mostly. I mean Kate from Lost could very much apply as a Mary Sue cause she had no real character of her own, she was just whatever the writers wanted her to be, yet was fought over by two very attractive (albeit douchey) men. But I'd be the kind of person to resent the writers for writing her so flatly then say I hate her and she's a Mary Sue. I cant dislike a character that is so completely unreal and two dimensional because in the end I cant see her as a person. Which is what a writers job in a show or book should be.
Anyway I feel like I'm starting to babble but basically it's not like I dont think Mary Sue exist out there, they most certainly do! But I feel like the usage of the word is completely disproportionate to the amount of actual Sue's out there in books, tv and film. and as for Elizabeth Swann. I can see how she's not as likeable or well written as some of the guys but I maintain that she's not a Mary Sue anymore than they are and if she is than SO are they. But just my opinion of course :) I agree about more Xena though!

[nekokonneko.livejournal.com]

The last time I can recall a character truly being identified as a Mary Stu in original work was Bella in Twilight. It's mind boggling to think a minor, newly introduced character gets that thrown it at them. Insane Troll Logic at it's finest. It is seriously annoying, the ridiculous standard of beauty/intelligence/toughness/competence/anything that female characters are held up to. In act, there are waaay more Gary Stues than Mary Sues in original works . Male character endowed with God-like abilities, lauded by all, with looks and charm that wets every woman's knickers.....this character is so prevalent, it's part of the scenery. >:|

hi elle!

[sisterjune.livejournal.com]

Ok Bella I can see being called a Mary Sue and in fact I can think of alot of book heroines where that term might actually apply as it should. But honestly I just DONT think it belongs in visual media. and I wish had the time right now to go into why. But it really goes back to how in a book, you have ONE author and some authors are very transparent in how they want you to see or feel about their characters and in how they fulfill their fantasies via their writing. In Tv, there are MANY writers and it's alot harder to come up with this issues that usually are what create Mary Sue's in the first place. but Mary Sue is basically an idealized version of a female, someone without real depth of character or human flaws, someone who is a cipher for the plot or clearly a self insert of the author. Mary Sue should NOT mean, a woman who is really ridiculously competant or pretty or popular with men. Yes the combination of these things can be hard to swallow but if it's tempered with something else or if the character makes sense, as a real person or person in that fictional world, then Mary Sue should NOT apply! No matter how much a fangirl or boy doesnt like her. and that's my beef. Mary Sue just doesnt even really make sense 90% of the time I hear it used now adays. Which isnt to say that no one ever uses it correctly but most people just dont.

Also WORD about the Gary Stu's, the are all over the damn place and no one even realizes it. I mean hell, James Bond anyone? But no one ever has an issue with him and they shouldnt necessarily but if a woman were in a similiar role as him she'd get called a Mary Sue till the cows came home and then left again.

hi tai! <3

[nekokonneko.livejournal.com]

We American visual media has many writers, but British programmes usually have just one head writer who overseas the whole thing and single people who write episodes, so it's more likely to happen there. I've heard people call Rose Tyler and Gwen Cooper [Doctor Who and Torchwood respectively] avatars of RTD. God damn, I bring everything back to DW @.@

You read my mind! James Bond is EXACTLY who I was thinking about when I wrote about Gary Stus.